tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post7667751129450001571..comments2024-03-21T00:14:33.311-07:00Comments on Ski Theory: Inside The Pain Cave: Politics and Finding CoachesAlex Wigleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12246494774748523303noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post-79645691080711794822011-09-23T14:21:16.601-07:002011-09-23T14:21:16.601-07:00Great question. Sounds like you've got bitten...Great question. Sounds like you've got bitten by the racing bug! To get fast, there is no perfect formula, nor is one path right for everyone. But for what most people are doing on the World Cup is running in the summer. They are building their aerobic bases for the winter to support the high intensity training, and ensure they can recover properly for it.<br /><br />Strength training is important, but Crossfit is almost a sport in itself (see Mark Twight and Brian Harders comments above.) It is very useful, but needs modification such as lifting heavy and slow not just going all out, for different phases of the training year.<br /><br />Adding in some hill workouts, and intervals, once the fall hits is pretty important as well. But remember you need to start working into this, and ensuring you are recovering properly. Once winter hits, be on your skis as much as possible, and tone the crossfit sessions down. Remember recovery is the key to all this. There is tons of info all over the website too, as a quick comment isn't going to describe it all, just a starting point.<br /><br />To get a good idea, check out Gym Jones, Get Stronger Go Longer, and other articles on Ski Theory marked Training or Inside The Pain Cave.<br /><br />As for you gear, go as light as possible. The amount of energy required to move gear quickly is high, and essential. 100g's here and there may not seem like a lot but it really adds up. I would recommend, Mohair skins x2 (to rotate between climbs).<br /><br />Also I would recommend racing the full course, rather than the rec, as you will learn the most there as well as act as training. Any specific questions you can also email me, which is in the About section. Hope that helps.Alex Wigleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12246494774748523303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post-91420620357875842812011-09-23T13:21:52.193-07:002011-09-23T13:21:52.193-07:00Alex,
Thanks again for doing this interview and s...Alex,<br /><br />Thanks again for doing this interview and sharing it. Would you mind offering some advice to a newby? I did my first skimo race last year in the at rec category and finished 40 minutes behind the winner. It was my first time so I committed huge errors, heavy gear and didnt train very hard for it but had an absolute blast. So, my goal this year is to go for the podium in the same category. I noticed the winner probably had a relatively light setup (15lbs less than me). So, I have knocked my gear down significantly. <br /><br />I am doing crossfit 3 times a week and putting in 10 hours into mountain running. When the snow arrives what might you suggest? 10-15 hours of Skimo with a few days of Crossfit? Doing some intervals? Sprints? <br /><br />Also, would you go all out and get some used skinny race skis(4lbs) or use would a 5.25Lb bd stigma dynafit binders be just fine?<br /><br />Any thoughts would be great. Thanks.TBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post-82078447510116526712011-03-16T22:52:57.627-07:002011-03-16T22:52:57.627-07:00I think Mark and I have flogged our points enough....I think Mark and I have flogged our points enough. But I would like to make one more comment regarding Boz's last entry.<br /><br />I think there is significant danger in drawing out CF-style, high intensity met-cons into the one hour range. One of the things that makes CF doable at such high intensities 3 days on, one day off (and I think Glassman would concede this) is that the workouts are short and thus recoverable from. When you change this aspect, I propose that you then risk eliminating this vital aspect and possibly introduce the spectre of over-training or, at least, some insidious, deep fatigue. There is a price to pay for that kind of volume/intensity. <br /><br />It's true that some of the CF elite do this kind of program at certain points during the year but these guys are like any other elite athlete and what they do should be taken with a grain of salt. Just sayin'...brian p. harderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03223537483494451530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post-69254670750638664262011-03-14T23:29:44.837-07:002011-03-14T23:29:44.837-07:00Maybe my comments were misread. Nowhere did I clai...Maybe my comments were misread. Nowhere did I claim that Crossfitting would make you an Olympic level athlete. I was trying to say that the "Average Joe" who had a program that she or he could follow is going to be more beneficial than just going out and skiing (biking, climbing whatever you want). Also using Crossfit as a model I believe that you can program for longer domains. Are you going be doing heaps of 3min metcons? No, but if you hang out in the 20min domain most days and extend into the 1hr domains while still keeping intensity high I think that you can be a very competitive recreational athlete. On top of that working your sport specific technical elements is going to be hugely beneficial . I personally have been working my uphill to downhill and downhill to uphill transitions in my living room while watching TV. Im also putting allot of thought into me technique when im out skiing for fun. I think that this is just as important as putting in a few extra miles. <br /><br />Is Crossfit the be-all and end-all of sport specific training? NO!! Is it a good way (if programmed properly) to work your overall fitness? I think the answer is YES. Is base training and VO2 max work LDS training (if programmed well) the be-all and end-all of overall fitness training? NO. Is it a good (great/well-proven) system for sport specific training if programmed well? Yes. If you have time restraints and still want to be a competitive amateur athlete can you do a well-programmed (key point) hybrid of the the two? I think so and so do many others.Boznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post-67750669371833169352011-03-14T18:58:33.154-07:002011-03-14T18:58:33.154-07:00Life collided with me before I really groked the p...Life collided with me before I really groked the periodised system and CrossFit was a perfect "life fit", and with very limited time (full time job, young family) I was pretty happy with what it let me get away with – which was basically not sucking, but certainly nowhere near winning.<br /><br />It's a style of training is hard and fast and fun, and the variety of abilities it yields for "normal people" are certainly impressive (especially for a cyclist who came to it without a single pullup ;). But as Brian said, it's not the ass-kicking it's made out to be for anyone who's pinned a number on before. The hugest lightbulb moment for me was that CrossFit was born into the context of personal training, not competitive preparation.<br /><br />I think the CrossFit Endurance guys do themselves and their trainees a huge disservice by not being up front about the compromises of the program. Chris Charmichael lays them all out in the introduction to the high intensity/low volume he pitches to "time crunched" athletes: You can peak two or three times a year, but those peaks are damn short. Your fitness is only good for 8-11 weeks. You'll get enough power to play, but not enough depth to be reckless. And consider yourself pack-fill past the three hour mark.<br /><br />Life is full of compromise. It's one thing to wish you were a pro and another thing entirely to eschew friends, family, play and the development of other aspects of yourself in pursuit of the podium. Compromise the luxury of being an ammeter. The art is knowing how and where and how much. But to know if the compromise is worth it, you need to know the terms. Friel and Charmichael were up front, Glassman not so much.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post-31317518375325219632011-03-13T21:17:11.617-07:002011-03-13T21:17:11.617-07:00Brian, you've said it well.
Alex, thank you f...Brian, you've said it well.<br /><br />Alex, thank you for posting the interview.<br /><br />One major point in it is this: the more focused, quality work still requires 15-20 hours/week. It's not an easy number to hit while holding down a job. <br /><br />When Stephane Brosse was 3x French National Champion, 3x winner of the Pierra Menta, and World Champion his load was 16-18 hours/ week. Sometimes more, sometimes less. He did the long efforts of course, raced, and 2x one-hour interval sessions per week, targeting either AT or MVO2 intensity. <br /><br />Female Nordic racers roughly 700-800 hours/year. Petter Northug did 850-875 in 2009-2010. Runners do less, partially because the impact is so destructive. Cyclists, rowers and swimmers do more (ref. Seiler). <br /><br />The WC-level longest Nordic race lasts, what, two hours (50km)? The longest "non-fringe" swimming event is the 400m IM, right? That takes 4-5 minutes? The rowing event is 2000m and lasts 6 minutes +/- and the 4000m pursuit on the bike lasts 4 minutes (the German team set a world record in 2000 and rode an average of 18,000 miles [29,000 - 35,000km] to prep for that). Skimo races, including the vertical, last from 40 minutes to six hours (for the PDG or Mezzalama). <br /><br />It appears that one of the entry fees for good skimo performance is a high annual training volume. The next is to sustain that volume for several years. Rico Elmer (2004 world champion, single) grew up developing his aerobic base - his family raises sheep, the pastures around Elm start at 1000m elevation and go up from there. Skiing was the norm, being in the Alps with 60 inches of precipitation annually. <br /><br />Etc.<br /><br />So, even with the vast experience and knowledge of training to develop the energy system that dominates all of the aforementioned sports that exists and has been proven, the "Free Lunch" crowd remains hopeful. I'm sorry but if all you have is 6-8 hours per week you can either be satisfied to simply "participate" in these sports or you can find a sport where those hours are adequate to develop the fitness and technical skill and efficiency needed to do well. <br /><br />That "sport" is called Crossfit. Leave it where it belongs. <br /><br /><br />Mark TwightAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post-68846424706561279632011-03-13T20:06:29.624-07:002011-03-13T20:06:29.624-07:00Love it Brian! Great points, I agree with not ope...Love it Brian! Great points, I agree with not opening that can of worms. <br /><br />Boz, another great article regarding the importance of "long" is "There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" on the Gym Jones site, which has been referenced on Ski Theory before. Tons of other great articles with fantastic information.<br /><br />The hours count, and I think if 8-10 hours were to actually work in producing countless podium results, every other World Cup skimo racer (and elite endurance athlete) would be on that program too. But more people getting out, as Brian said, stoked worthy! Here's to getting faster!Alex Wigleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12246494774748523303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post-26947638823760109642011-03-13T13:59:44.796-07:002011-03-13T13:59:44.796-07:00Oh boy, I guess we're going to open this whole...Oh boy, I guess we're going to open this whole CrossFit can o' worms again.<br /><br />I've been involved in the CF/hybrid training thing for over 5 years now. I still read the CrossFit Journal almost daily. I committed over a year to training that way. I was big, strong and slower uphill. Sure, I could dead lift over twice my body weight and do dozens of pull-ups and all that but being 15 pounds over my racing weight, even at 4% body fat, pulled me backwards in skimo races. It was horrible.<br /><br />Boz is typical of the CF converts. They have had a taste of what true, high quality work can deliver. Greg Glassman and his cronies have packaged this kind of work and marketed it to the masses. It's nothing new. This kind of training has been around since the 60's. But Glassman has done a beautiful job in getting it out there. For the usual gym rat who either goes in and does the nearly useless weight training routine while admiring his biceps in the mirror or gets on the machine du jour and reads the Times, the CF style of training will deliver real, generalized fitness that will prepare you for anything. It's been an incredible and laudable phenomenon.<br /><br />But for Boz and others to suggest that somehow training for 6-10 hours/week will prepare athletes for world-class endurance competition is laughable. CrossFit Endurance sells this notion. They hang their hat on the fact that their athletes finish competitions with their "best times" or other such meaningless metrics. What happened is that these people stopped their mindless plodding and actually did some hard work. Of course they got faster. Their lives were more manageable, too, because they had more time to do other stuff. They actually recovered. <br /><br />However, take these same individuals and prepare them conventionally with some thoughtfully applied strength and intensity and they will be even faster. Arthur Lydiard and his ilk have prepared countless Olympic and World champions this way for decades. It's not that others have not tried to do the same with less. It's just they they failed. Their athletes have no medals. In spite of what these new prophets say, there will never be any getting around the 15-30 hours/week required to prepare for elite performance in endurance sports. I'm not talking just participation here. <br /><br />Six to ten hours a week is way more manageable than 15-20. Most people just can't do the time. They won't be going to the Olympics, either. I'm psyched that CF Endurance and similar low-volume programs get people "out there". But I'll be damned if some athlete doing randomly applied, high-intensity weight training with a spattering of sport-specific workouts 8-10 hours a week wins anything at the elite level. Never going to happen. <br /><br />Matthew Weatherley-White, co-founder of Rest Wise, is fond of pointing out, "…never mind that the fate of nations hangs in the outcome of the men's 4x10k relay at the Nordic World Championships, and that an insane amount of resources have been dedicated to this end." These guys ski and they ski a lot. How can it be any other way?<br /><br />Train long to go long. Yep. Train slow to be slow? Not exactly. Train slow (easy) to recover and develop the aerobic machinery so that you can spank the hell out of some quality work outs a couple of times each week. There's a difference.brian p. harderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03223537483494451530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post-9582178782029315602011-03-10T19:43:21.661-08:002011-03-10T19:43:21.661-08:00the other mantra is, Train slow to be slow.....the other mantra is, Train slow to be slow.....boznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post-5048481591621451142011-03-09T13:48:16.732-08:002011-03-09T13:48:16.732-08:00Great comments Boz! From the training I've do...Great comments Boz! From the training I've done this year has been a mix of the old and the new. Crossfit style lifting, but with some light and long sessions as well. There has been lots of long slow distance days, as the old adage goes "you have to train long to race long," but mixed into the program is intervals and race style efforts. Definitely have needed the help of my coach Jen Segger.<br /><br />It's great to see all the different training regimes and programs out there, to find the best for what works for each athlete, and how to make it work with the scheduled time you have. Hopefully you make it to some races next year!Alex Wigleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12246494774748523303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6874541367337995440.post-89952130972162638152011-03-09T13:18:32.464-08:002011-03-09T13:18:32.464-08:00Interesting. I think that the way allot of people ...Interesting. I think that the way allot of people look at Crossfit is wrong. I have been very actively training this style for some time. I am not currently racing skimo but I am doing more speed climbs, tours and traverses, and I'm looking to do some races next year. A big part of the hole crossfit movement (when its done right) is quality!!! Working out with quality movement and a high level of intensity is very effective at providing results. But like most things one with out the other often ends badly. The nice thing about working out in this style is that the hours needed are much less. I personally know people who have trained for 100km ultras, down to 5k races using the Crossfit/Crossfit endurance model and been very successful. And often only needing 1-2hrs a day for training. That being said I know people who have done more traditional systems of training and been successful. From my own personal view I have seen much better results from Crossfiting then I have from other systems. I mainly feel that this is do to the fact that its something I can easily stick with and fit into my Schedule more or less no matter what, and that I don't have to sacrifice much if anything to be able to keep my training up. For Elite level athletes who have a proven system in place thats working for them, they have no reason to switch or try something new, but I think that the more "average Joe" style competitor should maybe give it a try. <br /><br />Since I haven't competed in a race before maybe I dont have much of a right to say this. But i think that for North Americans to catch up to the level of racing in Europe general exposer to the sport is going to be much more important than finding away to got top level coaching for the elite. <br /><br />I look forward to doing some races next year. I was hoping to get out to some this spring but unfortunately am heading back to work in the bush earlier than expected this year.Boznoreply@blogger.com